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MAGIC SAC CONFERENCE --- 10/17/86 with Guest David Small --- Page -1- Dave, why don't you make a brief intro of you and Magic Sac and then we can open floor for questions, ok? *Dave S=> Hi, I'm Dave Small, you're someone else. Joe Venturelli< boooo. *Dave S=> I make this thing called the Magic Sac that lets the Atari ST think it's a Mac. It works. *Dave S=> Okay, question time! Rick Peters< How? Dan Moore< Pretty brief Dave. hehe *Dave S=> (He *said* brief) The way how, Hmmm, it's Mac design philosophy. See, back in the old days, *Dave S=> you developed stuff on the Lisa computer, which has different *Dave S=> architecture than the Mac. Hence, programs *Dave S=> developed on the Lisa had to be machine independent. *Dave S=> I just took advantage of that with the ST version, *Dave S=> and did the necessary stuff to make the fairly machine *Dave S=> independent Mac ROMS talk to the ST hardware. It only *Dave S=> took a year and 13,000 lines of code (although pass 1 took *Dave S=> about 4 months and 10,000 lines). *Dave S=> -->next? Any inquisitors here? Dan Moore< Dave, what about drive compatibility? When and how? *Dave S=> Well, the mac uses a group-coding scheme and *Dave S=> varies the drive RPM to get a constant bit rate between the *Dave S=> inner and outer tracks. We can't read it with the *Dave S=> ST disk controller, so we'll go for an outboard mechanism *Dave S=> and probably talk to the parallel port. (16 microsec/byte, too). *Dave S=> So, we're talking about January, and the price is double for *Dave S=> Dan. hehe, Dave, would you give a short dissertation on how you use the mechanism? *Dave S=> [Magic Sac or disk drive? both! *Dave S=> The Magic Sac plugs into the ROM slot. *Dave S=> It contains 64K of ROM code. I then boot up a program *Dave S=> (about 33K) which talks with the ROMs, glues them into *Dave S=> the ST hardware. (To the user, you double click on *Dave S=> MAGIC.PRG, then click on the "Magic" box, and it starts up). *Dave S=> Then, you get the "Happy Mac", welcome to Mac, and so forth. *Dave S=> The disk drive is 10-sector format with 400K per disk, *Dave S=> (actually originally generated with FORMAT.PRG here on the SIG). *Dave S=> It matches the Mac's disk capacity without any of the variable *Dave S=> speed stuff and seems quite reliable. Rick Peters< Dave, how does the detection of the printer port affect the os dea< Silly but is maccartridge and magic sac one and same? *Dave S=> (dea:yes) *Dave S=> Rick, the Mac has two serial ports. *Dave S=> One is assigned to modem, one to printer (more or less; they *Dave S=> do other things as well). *Dave S=> The Atari only has one serial port, so I permanently assign *Dave S=> the "modem" function to that. The "printer" function also *Dave S=> goes out the serial port, unless you click on the parallel *Dave S=> select, which then ships "printer" data out to the parallel port. *Dave S=> Also, you can receive on either port serially, *Dave S=> but can only xmit through the parallel port. MAGIC SAC CONFERENCE --- 10/17/86 with Guest David Small --- Page -2- *Dave S=> The idea was to support Epson (and so forth) parallel *Dave S=> printers for people who already had those; I'm busy *Dave S=> with some software to make the Imagewriter control codes (for *Dave S=> graphics and stuff) portable enough to move over. Dan Moore< Will you be able to add HD support to the Sac? The Mac is pretty slow (due to disk swapping of data/code) from floppy. And if you do support HDs will you use MFS or HFS? . *Dave S=> 1) Yes, I am working on it now. *Dave S=> 2) Both. I have done more with the original Mac OS (MFS) *Dave S=> than with HFS, though, and HFS keeps getting bug revisions Chris< how about legal problems with apple? *Dave S=> from Apple, so I'm a tad hesitant to get into it just yet. Dan Moore< (dave, you'd better explain MFS vs HFS.) *Dave S=> I have a buddy with all the basic read/write sector *Dave S=> code for hard disk, he'll be helping me with it. *Dave S=> HFS: Apple's Finder 5.0 and above, for hard disks, *Dave S=> double sided, and so forth. MFS: 4.1 and below, *Dave S=> the old single sided floppies, etc. Keith Ledbetter< well, Dan beat me to the HD question, so, have you tried the new Mac Turbo Pascal on it (or is it really vaporware right now), and if it works, do you think it would be feasible to use the sac as a development station for mac software? *Dave S=> Haven't tried Turbo yet, *Dave S=> there's lots I haven't tried. (1000+ software packages *Dave S=> out there to test out). *Dave S=> MegaMax "C" works fine, I know, *Dave S=> and since you're 20% faster than a Mac, *Dave S=> and very compatible, it seems real possible. The *Dave S=> hard disk support should make all the difference in the *Dave S=> world, because it's so much quicker than a Mac hard disk. . Keith Ledbetter< ok, thanks. Joe Venturelli< Dave I know myself and others have been busting your chops but when can we expect a list of some of the functional software *Dave S=> I was going to upload one today, but my *Dave S=> CIS node dropped (right before the conference). Had to *Dave S=> call Dan for the new phone number (*sigh*!) *Dave S=> Right now the list is fairly short, still, as we test *Dave S=> stuff and fix minor little bugs. *Dave S=> Got MacPaint and MacWrite up, *Dave S=> Let's see, ready-set-go works, pagemaker works, excel works, *Dave S=> freeterm, macTEP, Megamax, all sorts of stuff, but there's just not been time to test all the stuff I want to and still get the product out the door. *Dave S=> To me, getting it "out the door" is the most important *Dave S=> thing; it's the only thing that counts. Joe Venturelli< have users been calling to report working & non-working stuff and if not is that something you have the time for? *Dave S=> Oh, yes, we've been talking with a lot of people. *Dave S=> We're trying to build up a list on a computer, but *Dave S=> the problem we find is many people are not giving us *Dave S=> enough information on bugs -- what Finder they were using, *Dave S=> and so forth, to really make a solid list. Coming along, though. *Dave S=> As soon as it gets a little more solid, I'll post it. Mike Schoenbach< Two quick questions: The first is on packaging. The MAGIC SAC is advertised as "an upgrade to the MacIntosh" For us poor Atari MAGIC SAC CONFERENCE --- 10/17/86 with Guest David Small --- Page -3- fanatics who have never owned a MAC, is there a terminal program supplied that will allow us to download MAC programs (since I can't port one over)? Dan Moore< Mike-> you didn't use it as an upgrade for your Mac? I did. hehe *Dave S=> There's FreeTerm and MacTEP, which we will probably *Dave S=> supply on the Mac disk next time around (so just *Dave S=> boot and go). The disk drive is the real solution *Dave S=> to this problem, of course, and that's why we're working *Dave S=> on it so hard. Mike Schoenbach< Which leads me to question two. Can you give a ball park price for the disk drive? *Dave S=> Oh, I dunno. It depends on if we go for *Dave S=> just a box that plugs between the ST and the drive, *Dave S=> like it is now, or a complete standalone *Dave S=> drive, which will cost another $90 or so for *Dave S=> mechanism and power supply. Also depends on if we *Dave S=> go for a UART or shift register scheme. Anyway, *Dave S=> I'm just not sure on the pricing of the drive, too many *Dave S=> variables right now. Gary Yost< Hiya. I have a lot of questions, most of which I can ask Dave on the phone, but I was wondering if anybody else was having some of the same problems I'm having: 1) Disks become locked as if by 'Magic'. 2) The keycaps are sometimes mapped totally wrong. (ie, on the Plato emulator). Anybody else? *Dave S=> Hmmm. The Magic-lock thing I suspect is *Dave S=> your disk drive write protect tab; I'm building in *Dave S=> a de-protecter and visual flag on the next rev (3.00) *Dave S=> to solve this sort of problem. I still think you have *Dave S=> a bad WP switch in there that is not settling *Dave S=> by the time I poll it. But, on the other hand, I've *Dave S=> been wrong before. *Dave S=> The keycap mapping, hmm, the only Rick Peters< Do you also use write protect to sense the disk is in the drive? *Dave S=> bugs I know of there are in the numeric keypad, which *Dave S=> is not "really" hooked up; it emulates the Mac *Dave S=> keypad, which is a standalone unit, and is off *Dave S=> one key throughout. There are various keys that *Dave S=> are completely unmapped as well. I have not tried the *Dave S=> Plato emulator, but I suspect they are going straight *Dave S=> to the hardware, which is a no-no. (Which emulator? The *Dave S=> CDC one, the CERL one, or the Steve Peltz one?) . *Dave S=> Rick --> Yes. Gary Yost< CDC. Keys are totally screwed up. Gary Yost< I'm sure it's the software. *Dave S=> It doesn't even boot on mine, so I guess CDC is making progress. Gary Yost< I'm just irritated at all these idiosyncrasies because a lot of this Mac software doesn't follow all the rules. *Dave S=> Well, they're learning fast. When the open architecture *Dave S=> Mac gets out the door, in January, they are *Dave S=> going to be in real trouble. On the other hand, lots of *Dave S=> Atari stuff doesn't follow the rules, either, and I *Dave S=> manage to do pretty well. Mostly the trouble we *Dave S=> are seeing is in PD stuff, which the people didn't feel *Dave S=> any need to make run on the Lisa or new machines, just MAGIC SAC CONFERENCE --- 10/17/86 with Guest David Small --- Page -4- *Dave S=> hack it together. There are also some weirdnesses *Dave S=> to the Finder 4.1 which zap some software (notably Infocom *Dave S=> games) it works fine under 1.1g, not under 4.1. *Dave S=> You may also be running into *Dave S=> subtle copy protection schemes, like Microsoft's. For those, *Dave S=> use one of the hard disk patcher programs; they make life *Dave S=> lots easier. (I want to include which programs are *Dave S=> copy protected and give that style of problem in the s/w *Dave S=> list). . Gary Yost< Nope. I'm going to record the CO and read it later. Bye all. Julius< Toodles! *Dave S=> bye Julius< Dave, I was going to say that when you do the HD version, that you allow the use of *any* partition on the HD as the 'Mac' Julius< partition, OS/9-68000 insists on using the 2nd partition on Julius< the HD and is a pain in the neck, as well, I have noticed that Julius< most of the 'crashs' occur after a Mac application is exited, not during the running - any thoughts on this? ! *Dave S=> 1) Yes, we are planning on letting you select whatever *Dave S=> partition you want to use; I'm an anarchist at heart, too. It *Dave S=> seems logical to let you use Atari's partitioner (or Supra or *Dave S=> whatever) then "cordon off" a certain zone for the Mac. We may *Dave S=> even make it compatible enough with GEM that it doesn't cause *Dave S=> problems to try to read the partition, which opens the way for *Dave S=> file transfer utilities (a nice addition). *Dave S=> The crashes on exit are a symptom *Dave S=> of a bug I found some time ago, and have been unable to *Dave S=> duplicate since (the "floating finder" bug). I have asked someone to *Dave S=> send me a copy of the disk that dies to find out why; *Dave S=> Finder (which is like DUP.SYS, very much) is reloaded *Dave S=> anytime you exit a Mac application, and sometimes loads *Dave S=> in the wrong place (off by +4 to +C bytes), probably *Dave S=> because something left a block on the heap. Anyway, *Dave S=> that one ought to be cured in Rev 3.00, as soon as *Dave S=> I find out what's going on, as I said, I can't get *Dave S=> mine to do it anymore. Julius< Thanks! Covered. Rick Peters< Dave, a couple of things, 1) In release 3 could you fix it so a crash dump could be printed via a ALT-Help keypress? *Dave S=> Hey, that's a really good idea, and not at all hard *Dave S=> for me to implement (which may be my definition of *Dave S=> a really good idea). I'll put that in! *Dave S=> (As I am busy making notes!) Rick Peters< 2) I've managed to crash most of the PD stuff at various times without any consistency as to the cause. Could the problem be related to Finder 4.1 which sometimes won't allow me to boot up a 128K mac on a 1MB 520ST at all? *Dave S=> Oho, that's interesting. Apple says that Finder 4.1 should *Dave S=> not even be *used* on a 128K mac; it was designed for the 512K. *Dave S=> That might explain a lot. I have generally found better reliability Rick Peters< I get a black screen with a dead mac symbol and a flashing... *Dave S=> with Finder 1.1g. (So yes, it could very well be related). Rick Peters< number display under the mac symbol. MAGIC SAC CONFERENCE --- 10/17/86 with Guest David Small --- Page -5- *Dave S=> See, it even crashes like a Mac (sometimes). If you want, *Dave S=> you can decode that number into a Trap; but, it basically *Dave S=> means that Mac didn't load far enough for the SysError handler *Dave S=> to conclude it could generate an error message, which is *Dave S=> right early in the boot. That sounds more like a marginal *Dave S=> sector on the disk, though, if it only happens sometimes. Rick Peters< I've also noticed flaky operation... *Dave S=> Could be something subtle like interrupts during boot. Rick Peters< with disk ejects depending on the sensor bouncing the signal. Works great if I use disks with no opening all the way thru for the write protect. *Dave S=> See, what we do to detect *Dave S=> a disk change is to watch the write protect input from *Dave S=> the disk each 1/70th of a sec. If it joggles, then *Dave S=> a disk has been ejected. Problem is, if the disk is *Dave S=> write protected, then the joggle is short that we *Dave S=> sometimes don't catch it (which is the reason for the *Dave S=> F1-F2 keys patch). *Dave S=> I have also seen, on some aftermarket disk drives, it doesn't work well *Dave S=> at all; I remember, for instance, a Shanner drive that *Dave S=> would not detect the pulse regardless. The section of Rick Peters< I would prefer for the F1-F2 patch to be the only way to detect... *Dave S=> the manual (the whole manual, actually) has been rewritten *Dave S=> to talk about this. Rick Peters< that the disk is being removed. It is more reliable on the rhomboid drives. . *Dave S=> True, true. But for those of us with *Dave S=> good drives, it's more convenient to have both, *Dave S=> although I see your point. Thanks, Rick, one last comment before we go to Keith? Rick Peters< I'll easyplex you a bunch f bug reports. Keith Ledbetter< ok, one quickie before I have to run here... *Dave S=> I'd appreciate that a lot. It helps! Keith Ledbetter< can we order the product now? (I told you it was easy!) *Dave S=> Yes. By Easyplex <grin> Keith Ledbetter< when will it be ready to be shipped (or is it now?) *Dave S=> We shipped some (more) this week, and will *Dave S=> really get into high gear next week. We've also *Dave S=> got two more people onboard now just to help us with *Dave S=> that, since I'm tired of packing tape. (Believe me!) Dave Blakeslee was on deck, then we are open. Dave B., Dave Blakeslee< Dave,I almost bought Mac Sac at our show (Portland OR.) last Keith Ledbetter< thanks dave. Dave Blakeslee< week when I realized I really didn't know what I was buying,. Dave Blakeslee< without taking too much time, can you tell me what everyone (rightfully!) is so exited about? *Dave S=> Gee, it lets the ST run Mac software. Since there's around Maybe we should toss that to Dan! <grin> *Dave S=> 1000+ Mac software packages, it gives ST users *Dave S=> a much bigger software base. dgg, is the MAGIC SAC CONFERENCE --- 10/17/86 with Guest David Small --- Page -6- *Dave S=> product description uploaded here public? Might *Dave S=> be a good place to refer. Yes... Rick Peters< It's in dl4 here There is a detailed spec on the Sac in dl4 online readable format here for any with questions also contains a _very_ limited list of software that works and doesn't. Dave Blakeslee< sound good. OK guys, you can get technical again, Dave Blakeslee< it's just that I buy a lot of products without really knowing Dave Blakeslee< why. thanks. *Dave S=> Me, too. Rick Peters< Dave, what are the chances of including some crash decoding help in the release 3 package to help us Beta people? *Dave S=> What sort of thing were you looking for? See, the problem *Dave S=> is that once the Sac has crashed, it's pretty dead. Rick Peters< Most of mine are bus error crashes. *Dave S=> It's even hard to grab as much info as I do. There are *Dave S=> several different causes of crash .. mostly zerostores *Dave S=> and those are fun to diagnose. Also, many *Dave S=> people are not comfortable with hex decoding, *Dave S=> and aren't going to understand what I'm saying *Dave S=> if I tell them, for instance, it went straight *Dave S=> to the SCC chip without asking. I did debate *Dave S=> putting in a diagnostic on the bus error page, but *Dave S=> right now I'm working over some code to *Dave S=> recover from it fairly automatically (or at least *Dave S=> make a good try) with many programs, so you never see *Dave S=> it. *Dave S=> To really understand the crash page, *Dave S=> you need to have a good knowledge of the Mac hardware, *Dave S=> I need to add a disassembler (sigh) and do some other *Dave S=> fun stuff, so I don't know how early it will make it *Dave S=> in. (On my debugger system, I have an external *Dave S=> CRT and the SID debugger loaded up, so if it crashes *Dave S=> I can usually get to SID and use those tools. 68K *Dave S=> disassemblers are difficult to write.) *Dave S=> I also see some very strange errors, stuff *Dave S=> like: move.l (a7)+,$ffff fffe , which pops *Dave S=> the stack into non-existent memory. I suspect some *Dave S=> late nights at Apple computer were involved in *Dave S=> stuff like that. *Dave S=> Does that answer the question somewhat? ... Ok, further comment Rick? Else Mike, Rick Peters< Thanks . Mike Schoenbach< Dave: I realize you eat, drink, and sleep "MAGIC SAC" these days. However, have you been giving any thought to any 'new' projects and if so, what goodies can we expect from you (if you can talk about it)? *Dave S=> Errr, uh, let's see. I usually get together with *Dave S=> Dan (Moore, who is watching), and hack things together. We're *Dave S=> working on a (dare I say anything, Dan?) *Dave S=> fast formatter utility, for TOS disks, a hard disk Dan Moore< sure. no one will believe you anyway. it's all vapor ware. *Dave S=> backup utility, some other clever ideas .. generally *Dave S=> stuff you'd expect from a six pack and late night. The MAGIC SAC CONFERENCE --- 10/17/86 with Guest David Small --- Page -7- *Dave S=> track dump utility in START II got its beginning that way; *Dave S=> we wanted to find out exactly what was on a given track, *Dave S=> so we hacked that together. Or the Mouse-trap thing. *Dave S=> Mostly I try to recreate away from a computer, though, *Dave S=> because I'm so fried on 68000's at the moment. The Magic Sac *Dave S=> was an awfully long effort and I'm sort of tired of 68K *Dave S=> right at the moment. *Dave S=> <grin> Thanks, Dave. Jez, . Then Andrew then Thomas. Jez? Jez Sans< ta. hi folks. hey dave, will Magic Sac allow me to develop mac StarGlider, on an ST environment? and 2. Will youu be going to the (dare i say it?) Amiga Conference? . *Dave S=> (What Amiga conference? Why doesn't Dan TELL me these things?) *Dave S=> As for Starglider, I get the impression *Dave S=> you're directly manipulating screen memory, which might Dan Moore< the one next month in Monterey. You don't ask is why. *Dave S=> be a hassle; the Mac has limited processor speed running *Dave S=> from RAM (about 5.9 mhz), so you won't be able to use *Dave S=> the toolbox that much. Hence, you'll have to go straight *Dave S=> to screen ram, and because the ST screen is 80 bytes *Dave S=> wide, and the Mac screen 64, it might be a problem. On *Dave S=> the other hand, MegaMax and a bunch of utilities run *Dave S=> fine, so that's an advantage there. *Dave S=> How's that for half an answer? Jez, Want to embellish? Jez Sans< hehe.. sort of. Looks like I'll need the real Mac(coy) as well! *Dave S=> Be a good idea. Generally, I cross develop on a Timex. Jez Sans< Also, your Fast formatter, will that be Sector Skewing effects? (and fin)> *Dave S=> Yes. Jez Sans< Timex!? Zx81? *Dave S=> (just kidding!) Jez Sans< he hehe! Ok, being the CO in which TRUE secrets were revealed, if Jez is. Jez Sans< thanx dave. dgg . wrapped.. Then Andrew C., Andrew Chark< Dave, I have heard that our friends at Andrew Chark< Apple weren't too happy with the Sac. How hard have the ROM's been to get? Edward Smith< does anyone has d &g runout of roms *Dave S=> Well, see, too many people *Dave S=> think of Apple as "Apple", this monolithic entity something *Dave S=> like "IBM" or something. The reality is that Apple *Dave S=> is a company full of people with very conflicting opinions *Dave S=> on the Magic Sac; I don't think Apple corporate is real *Dave S=> sure of how to handle it. On the one hand, it could cost *Dave S=> them Mac sales (although I doubt it), but on the other *Dave S=> hand, it has subtle advantages for Apple as well, such ads *Dave S=> (as) making the Mac a kind of 68K standard. I personally *Dave S=> agree with the people who think that without branching *Dave S=> out, the Mac might start to wither and die. There have *Dave S=> been a number of articles about the economics of Mac *Dave S=> software development, and some big companies have tapered *Dave S=> off their Mac effort; if we can encourage that effort to keep MAGIC SAC CONFERENCE --- 10/17/86 with Guest David Small --- Page -8- *Dave S=> up, Apple wins at this. *Dave S=> What's really strange *Dave S=> is that Atari corporate is even less sure of this *Dave S=> product. I heard of a dealer meeting where Atari debated *Dave S=> selling the Sac for two hours with various dealers. *Dave S=> See, Atari is scared it might slow ST software development *Dave S=> (which I think is wrong). So, you get under the *Dave S=> surface, and Atari is scared of it -- and Apple sees *Dave S=> some advantages. It's a strange situation. *Dave S=> As for the legal stuff, *Dave S=> Apple sent us a letter (I don't think this is secret stuff) with *Dave S=> some objections to the product, primarily us selling their *Dave S=> ROMs and the name "Mac", which is trademarked (we didn't *Dave S=> know during the "MacCartridge" days). So, *Dave S=> we didn't sell it with ROMs and we changed the name. That's *Dave S=> the last we've heard. We did let them know a month in *Dave S=> advance it was going on sale -- no response. *Dave S=> So, generally, we've played square with Apple and *Dave S=> they've done the same for us. Want to expand, Andrew? Else Mr. Powderly,ga <MACDonald's?> Andrew Chark< that's all, thanx -- Joe Venturelli< where'd ya get the name MAGIC SAC?? Edward Smith< DOES ANYONE KNOW IF D&G COMPUTERVISIONS HAS RUN OUT OF ROMS??? *Dave S=> Joe --> My Partner Joel came up with it during a low-oxygen *Dave S=> portion of an airplane trip back from San Jose..true story! Jez Sans< dave- re: bix. SOME advantages, then! Whoa, gang... Joe Venturelli< Ed- B&C computervisions 408-749-1003 Joe Venturelli< give it a try *Dave S=> (Aye, time to slow down. Joe Venturelli< sorry Thomas has the floor until he yields then ED and Joe. <grin> Edward Smith< By the way Dave, will the Magic Sac run II-in a Mac( Apple 2e emulation)?? Edward Smith< Sorry. >bang< Thomas, apologies for the enthusiasm here you wanted to ask a question? Thomas Powderly< the toolbox? Ok, Dave, please comment on the Tool box... and then we will let Thomas expand... *Dave S=> (I'm lost, sorry. What about it?) then it will be ED's turn, Thom, issue your ? again. *Dave S=> --> Dan, this is the Soldier of Fortune magazine SIG conference. Thomas Powderly< toolbox? *Dave S=> The Macintosh Toolbox? As in the OS, etc? Okay, what *Dave S=> about it? Thomas Powderly< ok. does the simulation get limited by simu-clock speed? *Dave S=> Hmmm. We benchmark about 27% faster than the Mac clock speed, *Dave S=> which isn't bad for an emulation (generally they are *Dave S=> slower than the machine being emulated). The Atari Thomas Powderly< ok, so are there thru put limitations to using t-box? *Dave S=> hardware runs at 7.9 mhz, the Mac at 5.9 mhz, which *Dave S=> accounts for the speed. MAGIC SAC CONFERENCE --- 10/17/86 with Guest David Small --- Page -9- *Dave S=> The Mac toolbox is some very fast code (particularly *Dave S=> Quickdraw) running on some very fast hardware, so *Dave S=> it moves right along. As for numbers, I don't know exactly. I *Dave S=> haven't done any tests in terms of chars/second. *Dave S=> (".ga." means "go ahead".) Good question, Thom you want to expand on it? Batting order: Thomas Powderly< thanks, what kind please, what kind of applications can be expected to run? *Dave S=> Generally, anything that runs on a Lisa is okay, *Dave S=> and a lot of stuff that is Mac-only is okay. Percentage wise, *Dave S=> I dunno, 80%? Hard to calculate right now, we are still *Dave S=> putting polish on the product. It does well, though. Thomas Powderly< Ed Smith, Joe, Dan, then Mr. Cohen. Jez Sans< ? Edward Smith< Dave will the MAGIC SAC run IIe in a Mac (Apple IIe emulation)??? *Dave S=> I don't honestly know. I doubt it; to get that *Dave S=> sort of speed, they are probably going straight to screen *Dave S=> RAM. However, if they run under "MacWorks" on the Lisa, *Dave S=> which you could check in the ads, then it *Dave S=> will almost certainly go. *Dave S=> I did an 8080 emulator for the 68000, so Edward Smith< Also, that should raise eyebrows, three computers in one *Dave S=> I know they are doing *Dave S=> some serious fast stuff in there, just to make *Dave S=> a fairly good 6502. Hard to even get 1 mhz. That get it, Ed?ga Else Joe. Edward Smith< *Dave S=> Ah, with the IBM emulator too.. yes, I hope so. Joe, then Dan, Frank, Jez. Joe Venturelli< no question here Dan? Edward Smith< SO-dgg have another ? *Dave S=> --> Dan, it means "go ahead"; it usually comes Mike Schoenbach< Dan h: That means "Go Ahead" -- the speaker is releasing the floor. *Dave S=> at the end of a long multiple-line. Dan Hooper< thank you. When should the mac emulator be released? Ed, we will let you have it back, then Frank. Edward Smith< Can one access the Apple Laserwriter through the RS-232???? *Dave S=> --> Dan: it is for sale *now*. It has been released already. Ooops Magic Sac is released. *Dave S=> --> Ed, not yet, but it is definitely on the list. *Dave S=> I just don't know enough (yet) about Appletalk and the Edward Smith< What about other laser printers? *Dave S=> protocol involved there, but it is an important upgrade *Dave S=> that we're working on. The problem with other *Dave S=> laser printers (which will work if straight-serial) is they *Dave S=> don't have all the spiffy anti-jaggie stuff in the Laserwriter, *Dave S=> (prevents stair-stepping effects etc) so it's not as classy. *Dave S=> Generally, if your laser printer emulates some sort *Dave S=> of popular terminal and you have the driver for it, it will go. Any further thoughts, Ed? Else Frank, MAGIC SAC CONFERENCE --- 10/17/86 with Guest David Small --- Page -10- Frank Cohen< Hi Dave, I've got a couple of questions, but first I thought you might like Frank Cohen< to hear about a cute thing that happened last night, at a local Frank Cohen< user group meeting. I showed some of our products, then someone showed Frank Cohen< his copy of the Magic Sack. You wouldn't believe the ooohhhhhs and Frank Cohen< aaaahhhhhs. But then it cam down to questions and answers Frank Cohen< time, and the speaker showing it was stumped. There were so many Frank Cohen< questions from absolute beginners on how to plug it in, etc. Frank Cohen< I'm wondering what you and Joel gave done to make it Joe Venturelli< I'm hoping to do that this weds. with UPS' help! *sigh* Frank Cohen< easy for the non computerese person to use or start Frank Cohen< with the Magic Sac product? *Dave S=> Well, it's certainly not an entry level product. *Dave S=> There's enough involved in transferring software, for *Dave S=> instance, to make it difficult for a complete novice. On *Dave S=> the other hand, the Mac is notoriously easy to learn to use, *Dave S=> so that counterbalances the problems to some extent. *Dave S=> Generally I see it *Dave S=> as a product for people who have had their ST's for awhile *Dave S=> and who are looking for some definite pieces of application *Dave S=> software only available on the Mac .. MacWrite, for instance, *Dave S=> or some of the data bases available there (like Filevision). *Dave S=> With an installed base of 150K computers, the Atari still has *Dave S=> a bit to go before software developers can invest some *Dave S=> serious money into development and expect to get it back, as *Dave S=> opposed to the Mac or PC market. Frank, any follow up? Batting order: Jez, Peter Baril, Thomas P. Frank Cohen< DAs Joel hasn't sent me one yet, how complex are the instructions? Edward Smith< so will there be a transcript of this available? *Dave S=> I just rewrote them completely, so they ought to Yes, Ed. *Dave S=> be about the third grade level (knowing my writing). Frank Cohen< Also, what printers are supported (and what about graphic output)? That cover it Frank? Jez Sans< bigger maple leaf perhaps? *Dave S=> Right now, the Apple Imagewriter (out of the box) *Dave S=> If you add a printer driver program, like the one out of Hawaii, *Dave S=> then you've got about 15 printers supported. *Dave S=> Does everyone here understand about the printer support issue? No, Dave, I am sure many do not. *Dave S=> Okay, I will talk on that a sec. *Dave S=> There's all these strange control codes that Apple's *Dave S=> operating system sends to the printer, to tell it to move *Dave S=> up a line, print a line of dots, and so forth. There is *Dave S=> no standardization of these codes across the industry, *Dave S=> so things like an Epson don't work "out of the box", because *Dave S=> they get weird control codes and freak out (eject paper *Dave S=> when they should be printing dots or whatever). *Dave S=> However, if you pick up software specifically to drive an Epson, MAGIC SAC CONFERENCE --- 10/17/86 with Guest David Small --- Page -11- *Dave S=> then it will work fine. *Dave S=> The situation is much like the different printer *Dave S=> drivers that are used with Degas to format a graphics screen *Dave S=> to various different printers. Edward Smith< OVER AND OUT, THANKS DAVE! thanks for coming. Frank, that cover it? *Dave S=> --> Thanks Ed Frank Cohen< Ok, dgg, that's it! .. See ya Dave, and say hello to Joel for me. -FC *Dave S=> Bye Frank-- will do Jez, ga (bye Frank). Jez Sans< dave- you mentioned earlier that you were already tired of 68k, if so, what processor WOULDN't you be tired of! Surely 68k is better than most!? or are you waiting on a 68030 or something risc(k)ier?! . *Dave S=> True, true. But you have to understand. There's this printout *Dave S=> of the Apple code, with no comments, that I've spent my *Dave S=> last year cramming myself into, and it's getting a little *Dave S=> old. Certainly I like the 68000 better than anything else, *Dave S=> but too much of a good thing is still too much .. I'm sure *Dave S=> that after a while, I'll get back into it. (To top it off, *Dave S=> the Apple code is written to use least-memory, which means *Dave S=> they use all the strange opcodes that no one except Dan Moore *Dave S=> (as even a possibility) has even HEARD of. After 1hr34min, I imagine Dave's fingers are twitching... Dan Moore< huh? who me? Jez Sans< can you give me an example of a strange opcode? *Dave S=> Sure! Jez, round some out, then Peter B. and Thomas P. *Dave S=> MOVE.L (A7)+,$FFFFFFFE is a real winner. *Dave S=> There's no RAM up there, so it pops the stack's lower word into *Dave S=> location 0-1. Jez Sans< doesn't that give an address error for the part that WASN'T there? *Dave S=> Nope, the Mac is incapable of generating bus errors. Sigh!. Jez Sans< many thanx. -fin-. Peter, YOUR turn (finally). *Dave S=> --> Jez, also, there's lots of MOVE.L (A7),(A7) in there whose *Dave S=> only purpose is to kill time while peripheral chips settle. Sigh!. Jez Sans< hehe Peter Baril< I've been relegated to the Kaypro for this Peter Baril< Dave two things: when on V 3.0 and what's Hawaii got to run my Pan 1091? *Dave S=> 1) As soon as I get it "out the door", which means testing *Dave S=> it to death to make sure it doesn't introduce any new bugs. *Dave S=> To be decided is if we add some limited color support for *Dave S=> Rev. 3.0 or ship it as is. There's also some tweaks to be *Dave S=> made to the Motivator code and some other diagnostics to add. Peter Baril< weeks or months? *Dave S=> There's an outfit in Hawaii .. Softlogic? Softsolutions? that *Dave S=> makes about 20 different printer drives, but I don't *Dave S=> know if that one's on the list. Weeks, hehehe *Dave S=> Rev 3.00 -- probably around 1-2 weeks, we want to ship *Dave S=> it with the latest batch of boards certainly and update the *Dave S=> users who want to use MacWrite. MAGIC SAC CONFERENCE --- 10/17/86 with Guest David Small --- Page -12- *Dave S=> (And switcher). Peter, that cover you? Peter Baril< Running Ready-Set Go and Mac Pub like crazy here and so grateful Peter Baril< Russ Wetmore helping with the syllabics conversion so's we can send it Peter Baril< to dan Peter Baril< *Dave S=> Dan? Oh, yes. *Dave S=> Glad it's helping, that's the point of it. *Dave S=> It's hard trying to decide what to add when you *Dave S=> have to balance it against pushing back the release *Dave S=> of something that lets MacWrite work; that's a popular *Dave S=> program. Is supporting the color monitor worth another *Dave S=> week? Interesting decision. Or the hard disk/double sided *Dave S=> disk support? I let my partner chew his nails on that. Thomas, you had a question?ga (Dan has only 3am-3:15am tomorrow. Peter Baril< well I/'m 67 dollars poorer for this CIAO and than Joe Venturelli< those are some decisions!!! UGH! per Bi, Yes to both, Dave) Thomas Powderly< hello dave, 3 things, hope they're easy *Dave S=> Thanks for dropping by, Peter. Thomas Powderly< 1) can I use any audio or hack one up? *Dave S=> MIDI or speaker? Thomas Powderly< 2) can I only use non-protected software? *Dave S=> With "hard disk install" (outfit in San Francisco), you can Thomas Powderly< any audio that's called for by the Mac-application *Dave S=> use both. You can only *transfer* unprotected stuff, though, *Dave S=> because of that protection. *Dave S=> Generally, no on the audio, because the sound chips are *Dave S=> so different, but I might add some limited support later. *Dave S=> It's just a question of priorities; I'm more or less *Dave S=> doing the job of many different development groups at Apple, *Dave S=> and there's only one of me. *Dave S=> Copy protected software prevents itself from being copied, *Dave S=> hence, can't make an ST version of it. Thomas Powderly< thanx, is version 3.0 soft only or hardware also? Peter or Thomas any further on your ??'s, else Aaron. *Dave S=> Software only. The hardware is nice and solid. // Thomas Powderly< any price settled on? Thomas Powderly< *Dave S=> For rev 3.00? Thomas Powderly< righto .g. *Dave S=> Prolly free to registered users.. and on the disks *Dave S=> of new ones solid .. we're major capitalists here. Thomas that cover it? Aaron, ga! Aaron Hunter< I am curious how most people are getting software for the cart? Aaron Hunter< *Dave S=> Lots of Mac stuff being downloaded; lots being transferred from Macs. Any more from the floor? Joe Venturelli< wrap up time 3 MAGIC SAC CONFERENCE --- 10/17/86 with Guest David Small --- Page -13- 2 1 0 Aaron Hunter< ? Motion to adjourn (and go informal), Aaron, Joe Venturelli< too late Joe Venturelli< hehehe *Dave S=> Sure, I'll hang around awhile. Never too late, Joe. Aaron Hunter< I missed most of this... Mike Schoenbach< Nice CO, guys! Joe Venturelli< right! Aaron Hunter< is there going to be a list a software that works? *Dave S=> Yes, Aaron, I will have the CO edited and up shortly, Dave is working on lists, but users could post notes to me here online and I will try to put them into some order and upload a file. Rick Peters< Dave, I wonder how many Sac users are sending in their Shareware contributions? *Dave S=> That'd be great! *Dave S=> Give 'em a chance to... Rick Peters< Should make Freeterm author a rich man! Dan Moore< Dave, what about the disk eject? Mechanical arm or what? *Dave S=> Really. Nice to get an auto eject mechanism. Hang on a sec, all, we had a "motion" to go informal, and I know Dave... *Dave S=> True, true. Time to adjourn, probably. Joe Venturelli< I second that motion has some problems with kids/wife/tendonitis in wife, I am going to chop the formalities... Thomas Powderly< thanks all, tjp but I respectfully request... Joe Venturelli< Tend to your duties Dave, Thanks for taking the time!! Rick Peters< Dave go pamper the wife or you'll never hear the end... you not to abuse Dave's graciousness in being here <grin>. *Dave S=> *sigh* I get to be house-daddy now! Rick Peters< Thanks Dave! Joe Venturelli< Thanks again! *Dave S=> Hehehe, okay, let's go another 5 or 10, then call it a night.. *Dave S=> any more last questions? Aaron Hunter< Does VCO or Red Ryder work? To Dave and all in attendance, Thanks from us in SIG*Atari! *Dave S=> Thanks for having me, Dave. Rick Peters< If I put a switch in the write protect circuit so it is always... *Dave S=> RedRyder 4.0 Yes, limited. 9.2. No. *Dave S=> VCO... unknown. Rick Peters< unprotected will it make using the F1 key mandatory like I want? *Dave S=> Yes. Joe Venturelli< goodnite! thanks Dave good CO! Rick Peters< VCO doesn't work gets bus errors from sound chip accesses *Dave S=> g'nite, Joe! Aaron Hunter< VCO is where we could really use sound! Thomas Powderly< my friends sez it's voltage controlled oranges! Rick Peters< The little talking faces conference software! MAGIC SAC CONFERENCE --- 10/17/86 with Guest David Small --- Page -14- *Dave S=> Ah. Well, if they go straight to the sound chip, *Dave S=> it isn't going to work in the foreseeable future. Dave Blakeslee< Thanks a lot Dave...dgg, you done good. *Dave S=> (sorry, wife calls soon) Dan Moore< Dave->call me in the afternoon. gotta run now. 'nite Rick Peters< DGG if you need a backup of CO I've got whole thing on disk *Dave S=> 'nite Rick Peters< Bye Dave. *Dave S=> byebye. *Dave S=> Okay, one last, then I'll head on. Aaron Hunter< Will it ever be totally compat.? *Dave S=> Probably not, but then, no IBM compatible is ever *Dave S=> fully "compatible" either, and they are still quite useful. *Dave S=> Heck, if we only run 74% of the Mac *Dave S=> software, that's still 750 packages you can do things with. 740 programs... *Dave S=> (oops). Aaron Hunter< Good enough! Thanks! Dave, I am going to intervene... *Dave S=> -- Okay, good night -- thanks all! and beg your fans to let... Rick Peters< Ta you be allowed to come back again... (Sandy can be tough!) Sara is too! Thanks again to all... *Dave S=> Sure, no problem. Maybe we can do this again soon. the transcript will be available by Monday in DL4 here. At your convenience, Dave! *Dave S=> Okay! See you all later; thanks for dropping by! Our thanks to the Conference Participants: Job User ID Nod Ch Tlk Handle --- ----------- --- -- --- ------------ 24 76703,4223 MIA 4 SO-dgg 34 76606,666 DEQ 4 dave 58 75646,1464 TTO 4 Rick 61 72637,1445 CNC 4 Joe V 84 74035,243 DEQ 4 Dan 95 76703,4363 LIS 4 Mike 77 76703,4061 RIC 4 Keith L. 89 73157,2364 BOL 4 dea 97 70007,1070 TTO 4 Julius 108 73637,377 QCE 4 SCHMITZ-MOORMANN 115 76703,4363 LIS 4 Mike 130 70045,761 HAR 4 Randy Gordon 145 75056,2006 TTO 4 Peter Baril 40 71550,201 CAN 4 KENNETH SCHROCK 50 71777,135 GNC 4 DALE DUNCAN 75 75376,1007 POR 4 David B. Blakeslee 85 76625,3536 LOU 4 mike murphy 89 73157,2364 BOL 4 dea 108 73637,377 QCE 4 Chris 116 73317,1350 SCS 4 Ric Clayton MAGIC SAC CONFERENCE --- 10/17/86 with Guest David Small --- Page -15- 130 70045,761 HAR 4 Randy Gordon 145 75056,2006 TTO 4 Peter Baril 151 76703,1077 SFM 4 Gary 58 75646,1464 TTO 4 Rick 61 72637,1445 CNC 4 Joe V 92 72376,665 DNC 4 Andrew Chark 97 70007,1070 TTO 4 Julius 116 73317,1350 SCS 4 Ric Clayton 121 71320,2256 FYN 4 Ron Kushnier 147 73637,237 OKC 4 SITARA SCHINDLER 133 72247,3661 QEI 4 Jez 71 72277,3524 TRO 4 Bill Turczynski 118 70247,3010 SRS 4 Intersect 133 72247,3661 QEI 4 Jez 138 73717,2261 SFG 4 Tom Jeffries 63 73047,2552 QEI 4 THOMAS POWDERLY 118 70247,3010 SRS 4 Randy Mears 102 72057,2563 ATJ 4 EDWARD SMITH 104 75166,2224 SMO 4 David Duberman 176 76625,3224 QBA 4 Rich Thomas 39 73075,1133 WNC 4 Jerry M. Carlin 88 72457,3171 VAN 4 Frank Cohen 99 76227,132 FTW 4 Don Bush 139 76625,567 LOU 4 dan hooper 147 73637,237 OKC 4 SITARA SCHINDLER 119 76410,16 SIE 4 Aaron Hunter əəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəəə